005: Giving Voice to All through Art with Colin D. Lord, Part 2

Jeffreen Hayes 00:00
That's why the work at Threewalls is so important to try and demystify that. And not just fine art, but art in general, right? We know that art is for many folk, a very social endeavor that is also connected to class connected to wealth. And the reality is, some of the best work that happens is actually not inside museums or commercial galleries. And we know this through Threewalls, I want to pick up on something that you said in terms of the mentors for this, the conference telling you fall back, right until your until like next year, one of the things that I am really mindful of is that mindset, it doesn't mean that it's not valuable, some of the time. But I think, particularly for black folk, we get told that a lot, we always get told that we're not ready. And when I see someone who is talented and can step up to the plate, I'm trusting that you're ready, you just don't know that you're ready. And so around that time, you were like, I'm going to decline. I talked to you into becoming Vice President, which was comfortable, and still very much an important role at the organization as a board member. And you know, that was also during a time where the board was going through, I would say seismic shifts, in terms of some of the former board members really coming to terms with the fact that this is not just optics, right? Like we are fully committing to being that organization that practices racial inclusion, and equity. And to your point, what you said earlier, there are so many arts organizations that have the beautifully written diversity statement and inclusion statement, but never practice it, right. It lands on the website, it's probably like three or four pages down. And so it is rare for an arts organization to embody it, unapologetically. And that made a lot of folks uncomfortable. And so it probably would have been that much more challenging as board president to kind of steward. But you are helping to steward anyway, behind the scenes helping me with having conversations with folk, difficult conversations with folk, you also organize the half day retreat that we had on anti racism. And that was eye opening for so many reasons. There were folks who, all of a sudden, fully got it, and quite frankly, continue to practice it and take a step back, which is wonderful. That's the whole point of not just the training, but the organization. And then there were some who were like, "Yo, I'm not down with this, I'm out," Right? And then there were some who were really uncomfortable and probably continue to move through that discomfort, and because of that exited the organization. But you were a partner in that. And I can't thank you enough for it because I wasn't going to be able to do it on my own.

Colin Lord 03:34
I appreciate that. I know it's interesting. When you laid out you just made out the different reactions to do training. So the facilitator for the training and name is Dr. Amanda Lewis, she's professor of sociology and she works in education at UIC. And I've known Amanda for a little over two decades and she's the most noncom-non-confrontational, most reasonable moat you know, and I was one of the reasons why I thought she'd be a good fit because she lives to work, who she is as a person. And I do that what she would bring to the table will be valuable. But it would also I thought be reasonable for folks who are at different stages in this journey. And you know, you know you got the- but it is what it is, you know, it is what it is the work has to be done. And I think that we constantly use these these phrases and so long like leaning into discomfort and all this good stuff, but it I just think it's amazing that you've got some people that are leaning into into discomfort 24/7, based on your race, class, gender, sexual orientation, that whatever the case may be, and asking some folks to lean into discomfort for, you know, for a morning You know, it's just, it's just, it's just amazing that you would get those types of reactions sometimes. But granted I've been a diversity practitioner for a long time. I enjoy those, those opportunities, you know, when I do get to the gym, it's not often but I do get to the gym, you work out, and you feel sore the next day. But when you, you know that, you know, that means it's been progress, you know, and I feel like, no feeling that emotional soreness or what have you, after a diversity workshop, like, that should tell you like, yeah, that you got something out of it, you're better for it.

Jeffreen Hayes 05:41
Absolutely. And it was exciting to finally be at that place where we could sit and have this half day retreat, and commit to it not just being the only one, the plan was to have two additional workshops, right. But because of the discomfort, the strong discomfort that came out of it, we weren't even able to get to the other ones. And that discomfort really just like, the morale on the board was awful. And so it's also there are folks who, as you said, to sit through discomfort for a few hours, right? where many of us we have to navigate discomfort every single day because of who we are, was really telling. And it says a lot also about folks who, because I'm uncomfortable, you got to be uncomfortable too until one of us, right, separates. So that was an interesting period in the organization. But I also know that it was really impactful on many of the board members, for sure. So with that, you know, one of the things that you and I have talked about over the years is the challenge of me being a black woman leadership and all that comes with it. And, you know, I very publicly, unapologetically state because I think it's really important that not only am I a black woman, but you know, I'm a darker skinned woman, I have full lips, broad nose, and I wear a fade. So I can't be mistaken for anything but black, right. I don't want to right but I, you look at me, it's what it is.

Colin Lord 07:42
To say I have full lips, I have darker skin, I have a fade. In other words, I am gorgeous.

Jeffreen Hayes 07:48
I mean I'm that too, I'm that too. But what that really means in the art world where so many of us, especially in Chicago, we don't talk about colorism enough. And how it rears its ugly head in the city, and in the art world and around philanthropy, and how that also shows up when leading an organization and the expectations that are put onto black women and leadership to mother, right, and to take on everyone else's burden. So with that, can you talk about why it's important to support not just a black led arts organization, but black women in leadership.

Colin Lord 08:39
I remember reading something a long time ago, and they were talking about you know women in leadership in general. And the fact that because there weren't many opportunities, or as many opportunities should be for women, you basically are emitting half of the population.
Right. And, you know, that spoke to me know, again, being a diversity practitioner, because, you know, I start from a point where I believe that the more that you include people, and when you include different types of people, that organization, that entity, whatever it is, is going to be more dynamic, and it's gonna be more impressive, like the research is out there, McKinsey and everyone else has done research out there to support that. So it's amazing, because even though the research is out there, people just can't get out of the way of their own bigotry and everything else to make that happen. You know, and I just feel that everyone brings their experiences to the table and when you have any group that is absent, that doesn't have a voice, then I think that as a whole whether whether it be the arts or our community in general or society in general, we're losing out, we're missing out, on excellence because that excellence is meant to ultimately be replaced with mediocrity of some kind. And I do think that on a very fundamental level, it's important to have people like you leadership roles, because the more we have people like you in leadership roles, them, the more that image will be normalized. It'll never be 100. There's always going to be a group that's going to push back.
But I really think that it's important, because I think that ideally, we want to get to a place where Dr. J can just be the ED for the organization and not always have to worry about bringing certain parts of the identity to tape on how that might reflect. And it's so interesting, because I was having a conversation over dinner with a college friend of mine. And we were talking about President Obama and our current vice president. You know, his whole thing was, President Obama was the first black president, so he had to tread lightly. And I had, I had a different perspective.

Jeffreen Hayes 09:27
I bet you did.

Colin Lord 10:04
And again, I'm not begrudging President Obama, for what he did and how he did it. Because ultimately, I think when you talk about like the definition of statesman, like he was it, right, like, I don't think you can point to many times he slipped up in terms of speeches, or, like, like he was it, but then it's the policy side. Right? And I think you can most definitely critique, critique from that end. And I think a lot of times he was looking at things through, how will people respond, if I make this decision, because I'm a black president, right? White presidents don't have to think about that. And I also pointed out that, you know, Vice President Harris, you know, I've seen her in situations where that sister comes out. And so when the vice president debate was coming up, I had my popcorn and everything, I couldn't wait to see her dismantle this dude from Indiana, and like, it really never happened. And a lot of people argue that, you know, she didn't want to come off, like the angry black woman. And my reaction is, she's got a right to be angry, like, if you're not angry, then there's something wrong with you, you know.
So I do see the importance of your position in terms of hopefully how other young black women, women of color, will aspire, and see that that is a possibility. But I do hope that we get to a point, you know, and unfortunately you're a trailblazer, you got-you got to take getting lumped with everyone else, that comes after you but, you know, I hope that we get to a point where people in your position, people like you in your position to focus solely on the work, or at least focus less on how things are going to be received because of your identity. Yeah, I hope that the day comes when we can, when, when gender and sexual orientation and race and all those things just don't matter.

Jeffreen Hayes 13:25
Right? And I'm totally there with you. And in the beginning, I was very much that black woman who, okay, I'm in this position at a predominantly white institution. I have to tread lightly. But there was a switch that happened. There were two things that happened. I went to Cairo, probably six months in for an arts festival, like Performing Arts Festival. And I was just actually recounting this story with an artist earlier this week. When I went it was at the height of writing and protesting in Cairo, and artists were being jailed for being artists. And when I went and was learning more about what it actually takes to be an artist, in a country where you are silenced by either being thrown out of the space your home and put into jail. I was like, some of the things we deal with in the US in terms of the arts community is nothing it's nothing compared to these folks it across the world who are literally putting their lives on the line for art and to give voice and I came back and I was like, You know what, I just got to I have to be who I am.
And I can no longer tiptoe in this community. Or even and particularly in this, specifically in this community in this role as a curator, I'm very much known as someone who does not tiptoe. I've always spoken publicly. But it's you know, it was very different coming into a leadership role in the organization as it was. So that was a moment. And then it was also Devin, saying, one, you don't have to tell us everything like you are the ED, do what you need to do. And also say what you need to say, like we got you or he had me because again, this was a different board. When I entered, you know, last summer, going through what I went through with MOCA North Miami around the AfriCOBRA show and the publication. I spoke with you, I spoke with three other board members, all of y'all were like you say your piece, and we got you, because that's also part of my leadership at the organization. And so if I'm not speaking out about an injustice that's happened to me, with the curatorial project with another institution, that is also an injustice to black artists, then what am I doing in my leadership at the organization, right. So I am no longer kind of tiptoeing. And I do think it has impacted, I know its impacted um black women in the field, because they tell me, they're also. But admittedly, they're also not in positions quite yet, where they can be as free. So they're doing, they're speaking in the way that they can, until they get to that place. And there is a privilege, and I recognize that, of a privilege in not only my position, but my credentials, and all of that, that I can't speak and not be overly concerned with the ramifications. And that is the beauty, I think also at Threewalls is inviting folks in, to develop and to develop that muscle of being unapologetic, but also being thoughtful about the impact of that. So as we close, what are your hopes for the organization?

Colin Lord 17:17
What I was gonna say, I hope that the organization gets increased funding and so on, but you are well, on the way of doing that. So are you making my horse reality? Kudos to you, Dr. J.

Jeffreen Hayes 17:29
Thank you. Thank you.

Colin Lord 17:30
So when I started engaging Threewalls, and I started thinking that I started thinking about the possibility of being a board member. One of the reasons why I followed through on that was, as I mentioned before, I've been doing the work for quite some time. And I felt like we were in the space in the place of a society that was incredibly disturbing. And in my experience, artists have always been the ones to lead the charge, and speaking truth to power, and also serving as therapy for, for our community. And so it was one of those things where I just felt like this makes absolute sense. If I want to do something of significance, this is the place to do it. An organization that supports emerging artists, that-that are oftentimes in the margins, and doing the type of work that our society, our communities need to see and be exposed to. So, I think that that reasoning that I had for years ago is still very appropriate, very relevant. And so I hope that Threewalls continues to support emerging artists the way that it has, so that the story story can be told. One of the things I've told people as I tried to recruit board members, for Threewalls is I tell people all the time that I've worked in some very impressive places, in terms of how they support diversity, how they try to provide access, of course, better chance. That's what we do. And I felt like you know, the folks at Hampton College it's a special type of place. It was a very welcoming place for me. And no, it wasn't perfect. There were times it showed that I just would step back and go this place besides being um, a power. This place is a pretty, you know, great place in terms of on how we would support diversity, and so on, so forth. But I always tell people, no matter where you've worked, and what type of institutions you've worked in, if you really want to see what true equity and access and what true diversity looks like in terms of being in being in the fabric of organization, you need to match with Threewalls. Right? We're still on a journey. We've not hit that ideal yet. But I've never seen any organization where the organization is so thoughtful and so consistent, and making sure that they do what they say they're going to do, in terms of issues around social justice, equity, and access and diversity, and so like, it's just in our it's been rewarding and refreshing. And I guess for me, Threewalls going forward. And I told you this before, I hope that you tell the story, so people can hear it. I hope you show people what you done, so they can see it, and hopefully try to replicate it. Because I think that when it comes to this type of work that Threewalls is the gold standard. And so you know, and again, I've seen a lot of different places. And so kudos to you and your vision, on know, making Threewalls go from being another another one of them to being the one.

Jeffreen Hayes 21:47
Thank you, Colin. I'm not gonna cry this podcast, you had me crying last month, during the board meeting, when you stepped down, we're not going to do it on the podcast. I mean, really, that's all it is these days is really tears of joy. Thank you, you've, you've been part of that work. And I have also told you that the work would not have routed in the way that it has, if you were not part of the board. And bringing a fresh perspective, a relevant perspective that is actually outside of the arts, that is absolutely connected to who we are as an organization. And being the board member that understands your role is to advocate for the organization, to support the mission and to support the ED. It's not about making my job harder. It's about making my job easier. And that is doing what you did. So we deeply appreciate all that you have done and you are always part of the Threewalls family even though right now you're taking a hiatus from board membership.

Colin Lord 23:03
I'll be back. God willing, I'll be back!

Jeffreen Hayes 23:06
So we're going to close thank you so much for making time. Always love talking with you, Colin. And, you know, give my love to the family. And that's it for today. So until next time.