006: Being an External Facilitator with Daviree Velazquez Phillip

Jeffreen Hayes 00:30
Welcome back to Inside the Walls. I'm your host Jeffreen Hayes, the executive director at Threewalls. And today we have the great pleasure of speaking with Davery Velazquez Philip. Dav is our organizational health consultant. And I'm sure you're wondering what is that, we will get deeper into that conversation about dabbs role as a consultant with the organization, I do want to share a front that working with Dav, is very much part of our culture of care at Threewalls. Over the past couple of years, we have recognized that while we extend care to the artists we work with, we also needed to extend that care internally, towards the team, particularly because we are working one on one with artists. And as an organization that has racial justice at the center of our work, in addition to intersectionality, and wanting to exist outside of the status quo of visual arts organization, and truly whiteness and white supremacy. We recognize that the team as well as artists, and board members and consultants, and vendors come with a lot of that pain and hurt and harm from other spaces. And so in order to care for the team, as we are working one on one with artists, we felt it was really important to extend care through an organizational health consultant, who will help us kind of navigate these times these moments of healing. So we are really excited to get deeper into this conversation with Dav.

Davery Velazquez Philip 02:39
My name is Davery, or Dav, and I'm really happy to be here. My gender pronouns are she and her. And I serve as a lead consultant with Together and Through which is a counseling and consulting organization that was founded and is led by queer, trans, black, indigenous and people of color. And the work of Together and Through is to partner with our communities, and engage in healing work, whether that be through can counseling, or consulting. So for the sake of our conversation, I'll focus on the consulting side, but happy to talk about what counseling looks like and bring in my teammates for that too. A little bit about me, I'm born and raised in Chicago. And my professional trajectory has looked at everything in nonprofit sectors, from education, to HR to working in higher education. And that's where most of my professional existence has been, is working in higher ed, both and religiously affiliated institutions and non religiously affiliated institutions, and Residence Life Student Conduct, but a lot of work and social justice, education and diversity inclusion. And I, I'd say quite a bit of my work at one point was on the programmatic side, but it really has transformed and more into working with in predominantly white institutions, and working with marginalized people to create pathways and systems of care for our communities. And then additionally, I do consulting work in partnering with organizations, institutions, nonprofits, what have you, and really thinking about how do we identify our values, knowing that we exist in a society that values patriarchy, white supremacy, colonization, capitalism, how do we still identify our values and then my work is partnering to make sure that our behaviors align with our values. And I can talk a little bit more about that later.

Jeffreen Hayes 05:11
Thank you, Dav. So hearing a little bit about what you do, hopefully, the folks listening will kind of begin to see how we are aligned. But before we get too deep into that, how did we get connected? Because one of the things that I think is really important, especially me as a leader, as a human, but also within the organization, our origin stories, like how things came to be, and so do you want to share?

Davery Velazquez Philip 05:46
Absolutely. So I was invited to join the Threewalls community through an opportunity to facilitate a dialogue, a conversation amongst team members. And I, I'd love your in your inside perspective on this Jeffreen. But from my perspective, I believe I was invited because having difficult conversations amongst a team, or having conversations in general, that might have tension, sometimes it's helpful to have an external person to hold the space, so that team members don't have to also engage as a participant and as a facilitator. That can be really exhausting a lot of shifting of hats and responsibilities and power dynamics at play. And it's sometimes really nice to have someone else hold the process externally, in a way that allows for there to be authentic dialogue, and have someone who understands the nuances of communities that support marginalized people. So whether that be racialized disability, immigration, you name it, how do we have people who are both strong facilitators, but also understand some of that societal expectation and group language norms? What have you that can shift between let's talk about organizational health and dynamics and say, That's anti blackness at the same time. And so I believe I was invited where there was an opportunity for a conversation that needed to be had amongst team members and team members sharing, hey, I think it might be helpful to have an external facilitator and Jeffreen saying, yes, let's do that.
Let's do that. So that we can all show up authentically, and in our roles as a team members rather than as facilitators. So that's how I came into the fold. And I've kind of stuck around since then, really looking at more opportunities for the team to engage in ways that allow their wellness to be centered, while they are creating opportunities for their communities as well.

Jeffreen Hayes 08:12
Yeah, that's a really great overview of how we connected we did reach out to Dav, because we were having an internal conversation around programs, and how to move forward with a particular program. And with that, there were other issues that came up that needed to also be discussed. And so in those moments, it is absolutely helpful to have an outside person who aligns with the values of the organization, to facilitate so that we all can be present. So I often find myself as the facilitator, and so I can't always be fully present, not only as a team member, but as a human being. And so having someone who understands, again, the culture, the values, the nuances was really impactful. And out of that came the affirmation of a thought that I had a couple years prior was seeing that because of the work that Threewalls does. We work with artists one on one, and understanding that artists are humans, which means they're bringing their whole selves, that it was a lot on the team and that the team themselves, then I would say, begin to the issues and life things that they were dealing with started to rise to the surface and they were not fully able to show up to do the work and what I firmly believe, and I say this to folks about Threewalls, whether you are a new team member, or an artist, or a board member, or collaborator, is in order to do the work that we do, effectively and thoughtfully and intentionally, we have to ourselves be centered, we have to be grounded. And how do we do that in a world, as you said, at the top, Dav, that really doesn't value our being, but we want to value other folks as beings. And we also have to do that for ourselves. And I had said to a colleague of mine, at a conference, we were talking about this, and I said, Well, what I really want is a therapist for my team that is related to the work. Because, again, I'm asking folks to show up holy, as I am also showing up holy. And so what that means is dealing with the things that rise in our personal lives, that affect our work. And so after that facilitation with Dav, it just kind of clicked that actually, this is something that as an organization we need to invest in. And here we are, we collaborate with Dav, and I can say in it's almost a year, there has been so many moments of affirmation and confirmation, and really like just someone who cares for you and can reflect back things that you may not see or you're unsure of. And so again, like that affirmation, so, Dav has been working with us over this past year, and it really has been something that I wish I would have done sooner. So Dav, what are the benefits for a nonprofit to work with someone like you?

Davery Velazquez Philip 12:09
Yeah. Let me also just say, Jeffreen, that it's been a pleasure working with you all, you know, when Daniel and I, Daniel, the founder of Together and Through, and I started working together and working on this project, it was very clear to us that we wanted to work with a specific kind of community member. So we wanted to work with those organizations that were supporting, marginalized communities that were doing the good work that are, are in the mud, if you will, as you said that this is hard work, and wanting to make sure that we could pour back into our communities, with our time with our resources. And so I think sometimes folks will automatically say, oh, having a consultant is really expensive, which can be true. Or having a consultant means that we that there's a big issue that we need to address or a project that we need help identifying and not seeing it as a consultant, at least an organizational health consultant really is like checkups, if you will, like preventative care, if you will, if that if that's a model that works for you, but an opportunity to say, rather than getting completely off of our path and having no idea where our compasses, how do we see ourselves bringing in someone who could provide a steady drum, who can help remind us reflect back to us what we say we are, who we want to be, and who will help direct us in that direction and or call us out when we're not in alignment. And that's a part of the care. I am not a therapist, I am not a clinical, I'm not clinically trained in that way. But I am someone who holds multiple marginalized identities has navigated what it means to care for community while doing community faced work. And so I do believe that my own lived experience and professional experiences helped me hold that nuance around. We want to uplift while also oftentimes being a part of that community at the same time and that run ragged. Get run ragged while trying to navigate these systems that certainly weren't built for us and continue to cause harm to our people. So a an organization who is very much wanting to do the good work, wanting to be in alignment with values and mission or goals and still be people centered and not thinking that we have to value process over people. Those are the kind of communities that I want to work with. And we take into our discernment process. Is this a group that aligns that they have an idea of who they want to be that they're already taking the movement to be in alignment with who they want to be? Or is this a community that said that might know all the buzzwords and it doesn't align with their behavior? And I may not respond to you and say, Hey, I see that you're actually not about that life. That might not be the way that I respond. But I might say, with a with a nudge, here's why we think that this partnership will work or here's why it may not work and invite a conversation with that. Because certainly, I don't see myself going in to a community and seeing myself as a fixer. As a hero. I certainly ask the community to say, what is it that you hope to achieve, and I am reminding you of what you hope to achieve along the way while providing some insight.
And I think if there are organizations out there individuals out there where that sounds like the kind of work you want to do, then I invite that sort of partnership.

Jeffreen Hayes 16:34
I really appreciate what you said in terms of you are not a fixer, and you are not a martyr, because so many people in the work that we're doing, believe that that's their role. Right? And, and believe that, that that is their role, because other spaces have invited them to be that. And other spaces usually are predominately white institutions, who will hire the one and you are the fixer have all of the problems. And someone who is deemed to be powerful, even though you have very little power within that institution. And I definitely believe that within Threewalls, there has been definitely this idea of our job is to fix folk, our job is to hold and absorb a lot of that trauma, that violence, that abuse that other folks have experienced in predominately white institutions. And that's not our role. And working with you, it has been a reminder of like, actually, that's not what we do. And the one phrase that I just I hold very dear, when thinking about how I'm engaging with an artist, or collaborator, or even a team member, or board member is something that you said at the top of the year with us, which is that grace has an expiration date. And I can't tell you how that has really changed my life. Really, because again, and I will speak for myself in this I am someone who wants to help everybody. And I extend grace, upon extension upon extension to a detriment to my own to myself. And what I hear you say when that phrase is being used is Grace has an expiration date, which means that you should be creating boundaries. Yes. And that is something in the art world we do not know how to do. And man worlds we don't do those worlds. Right. And it is probably been one of the hardest things that we as an organization has practiced, which is the boundaries and while we can put the boundaries on paper, so for example, we do take collective rest together, which means we take shared vacation in August and December. And that's really important. So that one we are actually resting and to that there isn't pressure on any one person to feel like they need to be working when they're on vacation. And creating that as a boundary has been challenging for team members when we're engaging with an artist who they might be doing something in the fall. But they want to talk to us in August and having team members say actually, I'm on vacation, I'll get back to you in September, and sometimes having artists try and push back. But having probably more artists, particularly those of color, or within historically excluded communities, say, I respect that, and y'all deserve the rest. I'll check you in September. And so when I think of grace has an expiration date, I think, okay, it's about boundaries. Can you talk a little bit about that, because of the work that we do, we want to help and we want to be accessible. But I don't know that we always understand that creating boundaries is part of that work.

Davery Velazquez Philip 20:48
Right. Boundaries, for me go hand in hand with having a clear understanding of needs and expectations. And even even in our work together, and even during this column, me being able to say, here's what I'm not, it's really important that when I am engaging with folks, especially and a working relationship, I want to be upfront with what you can expect from me and what you can't and, and also open that up for negotiation, recognizing that relationships evolve and change. And so if there is a need, and or an expectation, creating the pathways for that kind of communication to take place, what I really love about Threewalls, taking August off besides August, Black August, which I think is incredibly, the time, the timing around that is spot on, not by accident by any means. But what I what I appreciate about that is to say we are role modeling a way of engaging and allowing ourselves to rest to be to step away. Because oftentimes, when it comes to boundaries, or communicating needs and expectations, many of us don't have examples of what that looks like feels like. And oftentimes when we have attempted to create boundaries, or communicate needs and expectations, there are consequences. Because the world expects us to exhaust ourselves, the world expects us to be disposable, to not be seen as human, or oftentimes many of us come from communities where our humaneness has been ripped away. And so to say, actually, here's what I need to be human. Here's what I need, in order to be the kind of human I want to be, while I'm here on this earth, and some of that is taking your time, or some of that is saying, here's what you can expect from me, here's how I'm willing to engage in negotiating with the negotiation with you around needs and expectations, that is role modeling. And oftentimes, that role modeling process can even be challenging within community, right. So sometimes we might have this conversation, say when I'm pushing up against white systems, I know what it feels like, when white systems don't like to be changed, or when all cis male systems don't like to be changed. But where it can get a little bit tricky is when it's within community. So to say, I do care about you, and I'm not your mother,

Davery Velazquez Philip 23:41
As a woman, as a woman of color, right? Or to say I do care about you. And in order for me to care for you in the way that I want to I also need to prioritize me what a revolutionary act it is for some of us to say I get to be a priority. And sometimes within community, we don't like that, we hear you being the priority as a threat to me or you being the priority means that there's a little bit less of whatever the resource is, for me, whether that's attention, recognition, space at the table, whatever that might mean. And I really hope that when we are working together or when communities are striving to do this sort of healing collectivist work, this community based work that we can say, it's going to be complicated because we're creating a world that doesn't exist. We're actively creating systems of care that, in fact, are usually under threat, or that are in some ways chastise or have caused some risk for us when we are creating them. So I really hope that when we have it conversations around boundaries and needs and expectations that we can see we can give ourselves permission to practice. And to your point that we also get to say, I've been practicing this for a while. So now I have a good understanding of what this means for me. And here's the expiration date as I transitioned out of that practice mode. And that's where I think the grace comes in being able to say, here's the grace, I'm willing to offer this relationship as we are practicing boundary setting, and accountability, and needs and expectations naming. And here's when the grace period is ending, because what we won't do is see this way of being this way of being kind and willing to be adventurous or willing to take in new ways of being what we won't see that is as weakness, that is not a weakness, and you will not take away my desire to do differently, because you're taking advantage of it. So that's a little bit for me around why I say, grace has an expiration date, or why we have boundaries, because it is a new way of being for many of us.

Jeffreen Hayes 26:22
It is especially within our communities. And it is a new way of being and it is part of world building. And I really appreciate you talking about this in terms of it is not something that exists in our current systems. And so we are building new or different systems. And there is going to be kind of this push pull around that. But it is absolutely necessary if we are going to move from a place of survival to thriving, and I'm really being more specific in terms of how do we as a community as a people move from survival mode to thriving, which means rest, which means joy, which means understanding that we can have our needs taken care of. And it does also mean boundaries and stating what you want, and what you need, and what you won't put up with. And that is really difficult. Not even just like in the workplace, right. Because we understand that retaliation comes into play, oftentimes, depending on where we're at, or the fear of that. And I have found that within Threewalls, that many folk, like they like the theory of who we are, in terms of we take this time off, we care. We are centering you as an individual.
But when they enter this space, it's almost like they don't believe it. They don't believe the practice of it, right? Because so many of us understand things on a theoretical level, but we rarely see a practice. And so that's also where the rub or the fight comes into play, and almost to a detriment, and it oftentimes feels like they're just waiting for the other shoe to drop, which means they're waiting for it to be the very thing that you don't believe it's possible.

Davery Velazquez Philip 28:43
You're saying this, and I'm already thinking about how I wonder how many people then engage with Threewalls and say, All right, so you say you believe in this culture of care, you prioritize rest, I'm going to go when they're looking to prove you wrong. And where I'm going to go in there looking for the flaw? And spoiler alert, there will be flaws, because we as humans are flawed. And instead I would ask that individual and or those organizations that are engaging with you to say, why is that your motive? What is that about? Where does that come from? And if you are seeking perfection, then I have news for you that us looking for perfection is very much grounded in white supremacy. That there is this perfect way of being there is this perfect way of professionalism, of communication of expectation of the structures and and yet we even know that in organizations that thrive off of white supremacy that they are also far from perfect, right. And so I think I think a lot of times when people are coming in to engaging with Threewalls, and they'll say, this is really what it is and waiting for the other shoe to drop. Some of that is we can't believe that there are people willing to say, we are imperfect, and we are growing, and we want you to grow with us. And here we are trying to create a new world and recognizing that there isn't a handbook on how to do that. That we are also experiencing our own healing our own ways of being, but yet we want to do that in community with you. So I wonder for folks who are like, Is this really a thing? Is that a possibility? It's okay to be skeptical, right, though, especially for those of us who come from marginalized communities, cultural mistrust is real. And also ask yourself, if you are looking if your way of engaging is to then look for ways to debunk the myth, or to break it down? What is that about? What is that about?
Rather than? Okay, I see that they're trying, I want to try to, I want to join this community, because I want to try to I want to practice a new way of being I want to grow with this community. That is the type of energy that I would hope that people who want to engage with Threewalls, that that's what the that's what they bring.

Jeffreen Hayes 31:31
Yeah, I think, in the beginning, we had more of the Folk coming in looking for the flaws, like looking to prove us wrong, I would say now, we have absolutely moved to a place where most of the folks who engage us, they want to build with us, they want to grow with us. And while there is a little bit of awe, even in terms of like doing interviews with folk for new positions, there is a sense of all in saying, oh, yeah, we do take paid vacation. And if you need additional time off, that is fine. We do have a four day work week, we do have these other support systems and organizational health consultant. That's just like, whoa, they they can't believe it because of the systems. But once they're in, they get it and feel cared for. And so I also appreciate you saying that Threewalls is modeling behavior. One of the things that I am mindful of particularly when we have interns enter the organization, and it's their first internship at an art space. I tell them Threewalls is not the norm, it should be, but our culture is not the norm.
So when you leave here, do not be surprised when you enter another space, that is the complete opposite. We are a little bit of a bubble. And sure enough, I will catch up with the former interns. And they're like, Wow. I said yes. So now you understand why a place like Threewalls exists and needs to exist, because we are countering that the norm in just really nonprofits. So I want to segue back to something you mentioned earlier in terms of really creating the parameters for or the decision, the markers for how or who you will engage with, and being really transparent or clear with folk about when it's a good fit. And when it is not, because that is something like this is the first time I'm hearing that kind of thought processi with someone who is not Threewalls because we do the same we get asked to partner all the time. And I will say you know, this sounds like a really great opportunity. It's just probably not the opportunity for us for these reasons. And there are some who totally appreciate it. And there are some who we just never hear back from. But I do think it is it is shifting the way that labor, emotional labor, intellectual labor, physical labor is, is used.

Davery Velazquez Philip 34:44
I start by checking in with myself. And what I mean by that is when I'm invited to work with a organization and they're able to communicate what Is that they're seeking to partner on? I asked myself, does this align with my values? Does this align with my skill set? Am I potentially practicing beyond my scope? That process involves a great deal of humility. Because on one hand, I can say, Oh, this is income. So I'm going to figure out what I need to do in order to generate this sort of income. Or I can say, Oh, this organization has great credibility within the community. If I partner with them, then it will make me look good. Right? I think that there's also a desire to fake it till you make it right. Many of us have had to do that I was a first gen college student. So I very much understand like the fake it till you make it. And so there's a lot of checking in with myself. What is my body telling me? Is my heart racing with this invitation? Do I feel it in my gut? am I noticing if I'm beginning to perspire? Am I already dreaming about possibilities? Or am I noticing that I'm feeling nervous? So there's, that's the first wave for me. And if coming out of that, I say, this does align with my values, I do think that I would be a good fit for this organization. And here's why. Then I'll move forward. Sometimes I need to gather more information. So I'll say let's have let's let's meet, let's talk for 30 minutes or so I want to better understand what it is that you're asking. And a conversation actually allows for many branches to grow. Because sometimes people will say, I'd like for you to come in and do a training around, I don't know, racism in the workplace. And then I'll start asking questions like, why racism? What's happening? Who wants this training? Who might be against this training? How does this training align with all the other things that you might be doing within your organization? And it starts, it's kind of like starting to pick up rocks and look underneath them. And sometimes, whoever I'm speaking with, will receive those questions really well, and say, you know, I hadn't thought about it this way. Or, you know, thanks. Thanks for those questions, Dav, perhaps I can actually take some time to reflect on them and then come back to you.
Other times, I'll have people who know I've asked too much I'm crossing a line or like, that's a little bit deeper than what I wanted. I actually just wanted to say that I spoke with someone who was a diversity inclusion content expert, let's check off the box and keep it moving. So the conversation allows, as I said, for more branches to come. And again, then there's a discernment process, I'll say, if both of us seem like we're in agreement, like, okay, well, here's a little bit about me, here's what I can offer. Here's a little bit about you what you can offer, I will even then say, why don't we take some time to discern, and you get back to me, if this is still a fit for you. And if it is, provide me your goals for our engagement. And I might use the language of goals, I might use the language of intentions, because I do believe in giving people time to make meaning of our engagement and to continue to reflect on whether or not we align with each other. And then if I may not be the person that is best fit, or our values on the line, or for whatever reason, then I might recommend others or say, This isn't something that I can partner with at this time. So I think before externally putting it on someone else to tell me whether or not I'm capable, or whether or not they think I'm a good fit. I really check in with me first, to say, here's what I need from this scenario. And I have found that often, oftentimes centering myself and checking on myself before moving forward with an organization really allows me to continue to show up as the community member that I want to be.

Jeffreen Hayes 39:33
I appreciate that process. Thank you for sharing this, I definitely believe that time and the paws are that much more important in decision making in the work that we all do, and that is also counter to white supremacy where everything is urgent, and it has to go now. And everything as you said earlier, it's about perfection. And none of us are perfect. So I appreciate you sharing that. And so glad that I have a comrade in making decisions about your engagement through a values lens, the lens of values. I recently had a conversation with someone about Threewalls.
And how I early on was talking about how we should make decisions. And I was really centering our values as really the lens. Because at the end of the day, when we just look at missions, while the words might be different, the intent is the same. Like we all want to help people. So if that is the case, what are your values? And how are you practicing them? Like they could be stated, but how do they show up. And I had a board member who was pushing back against that saying, well, we it's it's about the mission, I said, it is about the mission. But again, we are practicing values. And we only really want to partner with folk who values are aligned. And they are also practicing them like we can see them. So if you are talking about you are someone who supports diversity, and we know that term to be very broad. And it's almost like passe today. But if you are an organization that practices diversity, I go to your staff list, I go to your board list. If I don't see that, then we actually can't partner and you are not practicing diversity in the way that many of us think about it. And many of us, meaning those of us in marginalized or historically excluded groups. So I appreciate it. Because I think more I think the work that many of us, do, we need to lean more on our values individually, as well as professionally.

Davery Velazquez Philip 42:11
Yeah, I-I'm thinking to myself, as you're saying that. I-I think some people would say, well, aren't you being exclusive that if you're going to my website and making snap judgment judgments about me based on what you see? Could that be harmful within itself? And sure, it can be. And I'm also trying to collect data to make the best decisions for me. And it's okay for me to prioritize my well beings and determine who I want to engage with. Just as if I were making decisions on behalf of together and through it's, it's okay for me to prioritize the well being of together and through and who we engage with. And I might be wrong in my data gathering. And I may not be I also believe that trusting my intuition. And even that can be seen as a radical act, in really being able to say, I'm trusting my intuition. The other thing that I usually say to folks, if they're like, Well, every organization needs to start somewhere. And if you're going through all this, like values, discernment, and then you still don't want to partner with these organizations, well, how are they supposed to get better? Where are they supposed to begin? And again, I think that there are people who are accessible to those organizations and want to be able to partner with you in that way. And I'm just strictly saying, That's not us.
That's not me. And it's important that I be honest with you about that. So that when we are engaging, I am communicating here's what again, you can expect from me, here's how I meet the need, here's how I don't meet the need. And to know that when we have partnered together, I truly mean partnership, I don't mean that my logo ends up next to your logo or that we occasionally talk to each other, or that whatever the performative nature of it might be. But when I'm saying that we are partnering together that we are giving our time, we are giving our thought we are giving our energy that I am seeking to support you as you might be seeking to support me that it really is doing the work collaboratively and not these buzzwords or this. This this way of thinking about partnership and collaboration that is so steeped also in white supremacy and individualism. That even that our understanding of collaboration and partnership is also a part of creating a new world.

Jeffreen Hayes 44:53
I'm sitting here just like snap, snap, snap snap, because that's exactly it. It is about partnership, and both of us doing the work. And it's a relationship, and how do you care for relationships. So, yes to all of what you said. And as we wrap up, I want to hear you talk a little bit more about intuition. Because this is also something that we are not encouraged to listen for, to trust and to follow. And over the past few years, I have I will say today I'm more publicly acknowledge that I am an intuitive leader. I do remember the first time I mentioned it, it was probably about three years ago. And there were certain folks in my community who totally got it. And I have circled back to just fully owning that I am an intuitive leader, and not everything is going to be written down. And being intuitive also means being grounded, and listening, and discernment. So can you talk a little bit more about intuition?

Davery Velazquez Philip 46:16
Absolutely. I didn't share this at the top, but I identify as a multiracial Boricua, I have very strong indigenous and black roots in my family and I-I feel like pretty early on in childhood, I had very loud voices in me, saying, stories and communicating wisdom, and often in my dreams, often in reflection, and very much feeling presence around me. And as I got older, and engaged with the world more, some of that was stripped away, and really taking more in rather than listening within. And the more I have reengaged, with my roots and my being, I recognize how much of a disservice it is for me to not honor those roots within my own family structure, within my own lineage, but also my ancestry broadly, right, because I very much see people who I'm not blood related to very much still connected to my relations. And I thought, what a disservice it was to cut off my roots, cut off my communication pathways, to the things that have grounded me that make me stronger. So that is sort of the origin story of my connection with my intuition. And then from there, I thought I've thought a lot about my goal is to honor the energy, or the human dignity of other people, and to fully honor their humanity and or their being for those of my relations that aren't human right, so plant relatives or animal relatives, that in order for me to truly honor their being, I have to also see them as a whole humans are whole beings as well. And meaning that they also have come with their own intuition, their own understanding their own ways of communicating of grounding, whether they have been able to access that or not, I believe that they have that because to me, that is the bedrock of what allows us to be alive, that we have this internal grounding and connection. And so when I'm engaging with other people, I do invite them to say, what does your intuition tell you? And recognizing that our intuition is not something that we just kind of came up with, but it is a source of all of our relations, both from this lifetime, previous lifetime, future lifetime, that is a collection of wisdom that you get to tap into that was uniquely created for you to help guide you in this world. And I invite people to do that. And then I get to sometimes work with fabulous leaders like you who say, I am an intuitive leader. And sometimes I work with people who say, I have no idea what my intuition says. And so we just try and break apart some space for them to be able to access that. But to me, inviting people to engage with their intuition, for me, at least is inviting them to be human and to check in with their own humanity.

Jeffreen Hayes 49:43
That's a beautiful way to end our conversation. Thank you. Thank you. This was a conversation I'd been looking forward to. Just really happy that we're able to also with this see how the universe has brought us together. And I just look forward to the continued work. And thank you for being open and transparent and vulnerable. Those are values that we very much hold dear at Threewalls and don't take that very lightly.

Davery Velazquez Philip 50:17
Absolutely, it's been my honor.

Jeffreen Hayes 50:27
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